As I wrote on some ones blog today!
Thank God for the so called "Torture"
Waterboarding that we have done.
God only knows how may American lives we have saved by doing what we have done.
Would you have rather cut off their freaken heads?
Personally, I'm OK with torture under these circumstances. Part of the criticism of torturing is that it produces unreliable information, which is not necessarily true. Torturing to elicit a confession is notoriously unreliable and really does nothing to prevent future harm, so it's not right in any circumstances. Torturing to obtain intelligence information about FUTURE acts by OTHER people is more reliable, making it more justifiable. When you also consider the fact that the torture was relatively non-violent and was only used on a VERY small number of high level detainees that we knew almost certainly had useful information about future attacks... I'm sure if it saved the life of ONE of your family members you would think differently!
And don't tell me about the Geneva convention! I know all about it.. I served our county and I'm very familiar with all the rules.
The Geneva convention requires soldiers to wear uniforms. This is designed so that troops know who to shoot at and don't kill a bunch of civilians. If a spy (not wearing a uniform) is captured, he can be interrogated, executed, and anything else they want to do, and this has always been the case, even for civilized countries. Why do you think spies carry cyanide capsules? I'm sick of people pretending otherwise.
Yes, thank you Mr. Bush.
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As a former US Army solider who had to take prisoners during the first Gulf War,this is insanity. Weatherboarding is not torture,hell we do it to our SF guys, the Navy does it to SEALs, and the Air Forces does it to both pilots and Para Rescue. Better yet, for decades it was used as a fraternity hazing at Ivy League universities,like Harvard. To go after the lawyers or advisers in the Bush Admin is setting a dangerous precedent for future administrations.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you both.
ReplyDeleteThe end justifies the means.
nice insight you have there, ms. redhead!
ReplyDeleteGod Bless America!
Where is the outrage over beheading journalists?
ReplyDeleteHi, it's always nice to meet another red-head. ;-)
ReplyDeleteYeah, waterboarding isn't torture. Torture would be something that can kill you. Waterboarding doesn't kill. Plain and simple.
Plus, if we captured Bin-Laden, I wouldn't care if they hooked up battery cables to his nipples to get info out of him.
Are you kidding?
ReplyDeleteWhen you also consider the fact that the torture was relatively non-violent and was only used on a VERY small number of high level detainees that we knew almost certainly had useful information about future attacks...Not at all true. It was torture. By its very definition it is violent. And we waterboarded one of them 183 times. Seriously.
Did you know that we executed people as war criminals for waterboarding? After WWII we convicted a Japanese Officer for waterboarding.
Did you know that historically the US has always considered waterboarding torture? That doesn't change just because one president decides to change the definition. Torture is torture.
George W. Bush said we don't torture in 2005. He is a liar and a war criminal.
He should be arrested and charged as such.
He broke numerous internation treaties that we signed. He broke Congressional Law, which goes against the Constitution. He should have been impeached, but he invoked Judicial Priviledge to cover up his crimes. He tried to change the definition of torture in order to do it.
So yes, thank you Mr. Bush. You showed just how low we could sink. You should be ashamed. You should be charged. You should be imprisioned.
Once again, James, you are soooo wrong. I feel comfortable saying this knowing that you have never been face to face with any of these people.
ReplyDeleteHaving 20 years in the Military Intelligence field, I feel comfortable telling you that you are terribly wrong. Your homeboy obama will take one in the keester if he follows through with any sort of prosecution.
Good to see you on again, Red. Thought maybe your buddy truth scared you away. hehe.
Great post! I have a proposition for the US military. If there were ever to be an attack in one of the liberal mecca cities,(especially San Fran), the military should just stand idly by. A few years ago San Fran blocked the mooring of an aircraft carrier/soon to be museum, in a clearly anti military move. They should be on their own then!
ReplyDeletePitbull: How am I wrong? I just listed an example of how we've always considered waterboarding torture. You want a list of laws that were broken? Here you go:
ReplyDelete1. In 1947 we convicted a Japanese Officer for waterboarding.
2. Congress said its illegal. That means that the President cannot overturn it and do what he wants anyway. Its called Checks and Balances.
3. We are a signator of the United Nations Convention Against Torture, which means we agreed to be subject to the explicit prohibition on torture under any condition. This was affirmed by Saadi v. Italy in which the European Court of Human Rights, on February 28, 2008, upheld the absolute nature of the torture ban by ruling that international law permits no exceptions to it.The treaty states "No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat of war, internal political instability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture".
4. The European Court of Human Rights ruled in February 2008 that local considerations do not negate the absolute torture prohibition under international law.
So again, how am I wrong? Just because you were in the military intelligence field doesn't make you an expert in the legality of these actions. Lawmakers, treaties, and heads of state around the world have shown the illegality of these actions, including our own Congress!
In the 1800s Santa Ana broke treaties. We remembered the Alamo.
In 2001-2008 we tortured and broke treaties. They are going to remember Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib. We just gave them fuel to hate us.
Funny, James, we always come back to a moral equivalency arguement. Also, congress knew what was going on WAY before they made it illegal. If your going to try this stump the chump shit with me, do it on my site.
ReplyDeleteI came here because Red Head came to my site: in fact, this post was about what she wrote on my blog.
ReplyDeleteAnd we aren't in the moral equivalency argument. We are in a legal argument. And historically and globally, waterboarding has been considered torture and illegal. It was Bush, and only Bush, that tried to change the definition in order to avoid being prosecuted.
This whole thing is turning out to be a little embarrassing for Obama. He wants to do away with it, is talking about prosocuting people who supported, at the same time one of his advisers is saying it worked. Ooops.
ReplyDeleteI had one poster on my site say that Bush and Chaney should be waterboarded. So her contention was that we should not do it to people who want to kill us but to the President and VP of the US? How is that for a moral equivalancy argument?
I don't think anyone should be waterboarded, not even those that did it. "Eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind."
ReplyDeleteWe are the world's only superpower. The best nation on earth. We should be better than stooping to the level of our enemies.
James Wolfer said... I don't think anyone should be waterboarded, not even those that did it. "Eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind."
ReplyDeleteWe are the world's only superpower. The best nation on earth. We should be better than stooping to the level of our enemies.
How about cutting off heads?
James Wolfer I think you can go back in your cage now, they have it nice and clean again.
ReplyDeleteWow, I'm Here to Say It. You sure showed me. Your intellectual capacity astounds me. Seriously, you're amazing. You don't even have to refute my argument. You just copy and paste something I said, then add an insult to the end of it. That's incredible. Really.
ReplyDeleteYou should have stayed in school.
Seriously, though, people like "I'm Here to Say It" just show why a lot of conservatives don't have respect. Because when cornered with logic, they say things like "I think you can go back in your cage now, they have it nice and clean again."
ReplyDeleteWe were having an adult discussion here. Let's return to it, shall we?
James Wolfer said...
ReplyDeletePitbull: How am I wrong? Normally
I just listed an example of how we've always considered waterboarding torture.
No, just you, reid, obama and pelosi, but the last three after they voted for it, were against it.
You want a list of laws that were broken? Here you go:
1. In 1947 we convicted a Japanese Officer for waterboarding. That's not a law. That is a UNIFORMED POW, Al Qaeda is not
2. Congress said its illegal. That means that the President cannot overturn it and do what he wants anyway. Its called Checks and Balances. They voted for it, again.
3. We are a signator of the United Nations Convention Against Torture, which means we agreed to be subject to the explicit prohibition on torture under any condition. This was affirmed by Saadi v. Italy in which the European Court of Human Rights, on February 28, 2008, upheld the absolute nature of the torture ban by ruling that international law permits no exceptions to it.The treaty states "No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat of war, internal political instability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture".
Again, not applicable if the intended target is not a uniformed soldier of an organized army.
4. The European Court of Human Rights ruled in February 2008 that local considerations do not negate the absolute torture prohibition under international law.
As much as you want this to be europe, we are AMERICA, say it with me A M E R I C A!!!
So again, how am I wrong? Just because you were in the military intelligence field doesn't make you an expert in the legality of these actions. Lawmakers, treaties, and heads of state around the world have shown the illegality of these actions, including our own Congress!
I am pretty sure I have proven my point. Have fun on your wikipedia/google searches.
In the 1800s Santa Ana broke treaties. We remembered the Alamo.
So your trying to equate al qaeda to the Texians? Not nice.
In 2001-2008 we tortured and broke treaties. They are going to remember Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib. We just gave them fuel to hate us.
Abu Gharib was bad oversight, not torture. Again, getting water poured on you vs. the beheadings that went on prior to waterboardings, the suicide bombers for decades and so on and on and on. James, I am confused as to how you have not tried to make this a moral equivalency arguement, when the evidence is all in your last paragraph and the one before that.
Bluepitbull:
ReplyDelete"No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat of war, internal political instability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture".
Uniform or not, it says "no circumstances whatsoever."
As for moral equivalancy, I did use that. We should be better than our enemies both past and present.
Comparing SUSPECTED terrorists to Texans: I wasn't saying they are the same. I'm saying that a broken treaty and mistreatment of someone makes their people more mad, more committed. Not less.
As for the uniform arguement, that is a loophole of something not stated in the Geneva Conventions, not something that IS stated. It doesn't say that we can torture non-uniformed combatants; it says we can't do it to those that are. Uniformed combatants were the norm back then.
Just because we are AMERICA doesn't mean we are exempt from international law. Especially when we helped put that law into place.
We are only as accountable by international law as our enemies are.
ReplyDeleteIf you like france so much, i'll pay for your plane ticket, one way.
Also, those captured in Iraq and Afghanistan aren't necessarily part of Al Qaeda.
ReplyDeleteIf we were invaded by another country, and you and I took up arms against them without joining an official military or militia, and we were captured, would that give them the authority to torture us legally?
No.
But that's how we are treating insurgents in those countries we have invaded. We are saying that because they didn't have a uniform on, we can torture them. Waterboard them. Beat them. Throw them against walls. Right.
And we should punish those that are beheading for war crimes as well, pitbull. They are guilty. That doesn't negate our responsibility here. We broke laws, and our previous president tried to cover it up.
ReplyDeleteJust because our torture wasn't as bad as their torture doesn't make it any less illegal.
ReplyDeleteJames, there is where your arguement goes awry. You are once again using moral equivalency. There is no sense in my arguing with a philosopher because it is only right in your reality.
ReplyDeleteThe next attack will come, no doubt. So we will see how your fearless leader deals with it.
How am I using moral equivalency, Pitbull? Can you please explain that? Because I am showing legal reasonings. Its international law as well as national precedent, which is legal in and of itself. One Republican President's hiring of lawyers to find a loophole does not negate the illegality of what happened, especially when in 2005 he said We don't torture while we tortured.
ReplyDeleteBtw, John McCain called it torture, too. And he went through a lot more than you did.
ReplyDeleteThere you go again James, trying to bait me by making me angry. You have no idea what I've been through.
ReplyDeleteEverytime you say, "How would you feel?" It's a moral equivalency. These people are used to being subjugated. I'm not going to argue whether it is wrong or not and neither can you because YOU haven't been there. You havfe no frame of reference until you do. If you want to continue this discussion, go down to your recruiter and sign up for the Army, not the Air force or Navy, then ask for a combat MOS. Then you can discuss this 'illegal war' and 'occupation' that your blessed congress people voted for and knew what they voted for. They just backed off once the hippies started crying, the same way they backed off waterboarding.
Using McCain is a weak arguement, from his frame of reference (and he was severely tortured) waving a hand in front of someone is wrong.
Again, the next attack will come, James. That is an observation given the perception the 3rd world has of our president. When it comes, his popularity will drop into the toilet because middle America trusts a president to be a leader, this man is not.
I've got some bad news for you guys. 15 per cent of the country agrees with you.
ReplyDeleteHerpes is more popular than your rightwing ideas.
Now continue talking among yourselves--that's all who's listening to your arguments. The rest of the country will get on with supporting our president and doing our part to get this country healthy again.
Shaw Kenawe said...
ReplyDeleteI've got some bad news for you guys. 15 per cent of the country agrees with you.
Herpes is more popular than your rightwing ideas."
Wow that was really funny! How long did you spend trying to dig up that asinine stupid remark?
James Wolfer .. I won't even give you one once of satisfaction and answer your crap. Take it to the Libs blogs, they will give you a great big pat on your freaken back. I would kick you in your fat ass.
ReplyDeleteRed Head: C'mon, now. You came to my blog first! I was just bringing it back. Plus, this post was about what you wrote at MY blog...
ReplyDeletePitbull: I'm not trying to make you angry. I'm merely pointing out that even McCain agreed with our historical precedent that waterboarding is torture. And G.W.B. said that we don't torture.
ReplyDeleteWhat I can't figure out is how we can justify saying "we don't torture" while we did.
When Clinton lied, he got impeached.
When Obama said "We are not a Christian nation" the conservatives lambasted him.
When Bush said "We don't torture" and Obama let the Justice Department show otherwise, people defend Bush.
If it came out that Clinton had done this, conservatives would be jumping on this. But since it was a Republican, its all good? That's partisan BS.
Here's my argument, Pitbull, without moral equivalancy:
Since 1947 the US and the World agreed that waterboarding was torture and also a war crime.
In 2001 through 2008 George W. Bush decided that international law and domestic precedent did not apply to him and had two laywers draw up secret legal loopholes to try and make it legal.
Pitbull and Redhead: I welcome a discussion on this. I just posted, specifically mentioned you two, and would love to hear your opinions.
ReplyDelete